</Rock Star Of Russian Contemporary Art Valery Chtak: I Don't Wear Fancy Clothes To Openings>
author: Katya Ceppel
photos: Lisa Merkulova
ODRA founder Katya Ceppel has interviewed Valery Chtak, who has recently been recognized as the artist of the year by Cosmoscow — Russia’s most prestigious contemporary art fair. We visited Chtak in his studio in Moscow, while his personal exhibition “PGT” is running next door at the Fabrika Center of Creative Industries. Chtak shares how he feels about his popularity, why defining decent artwork as research is often “bullshit” and why he finds Frida Kahlo and Diego Rivera mediocre and overrated.
K.C.: TODAY, EACH WORD CAN BE INTERPRETED IN VARIOUS WAYS AND IN RUSSIA USING CERTAIN WORDS MAY LEAD TO GRAVE CONSEQUENCES. IN YOUR ART, YOU'VE BEEN WORKING WITH WORDS FOR MANY YEARS. HOW HAS THE PHENOMENON OF A WORD CHANGED OVER THAT TIME AND HOW DO YOU PERCEIVE IT NOW?
V.C.: Words have always been interpreted differently from what they sound. You want to say one thing and people think another. This is something that happens all the time…
But speaking about my work, I do what I do and that’s it, it kind of happens on its own. You can not get away from the word actually, and I can not see a picture being complete without the letters.
V.C.: Words have always been interpreted differently from what they sound. You want to say one thing and people think another. This is something that happens all the time…
But speaking about my work, I do what I do and that’s it, it kind of happens on its own. You can not get away from the word actually, and I can not see a picture being complete without the letters.
But what has always bugged me is that so many people think of Chtak as an artist who not only comes from graffiti, but is also only about a ‘word’. I'm not just about a word. For example, the PGT exhibition at Fabrika now, is it about words? About words written on houses? No, it’s not. I have a lot of such artworks and installations in which people often don't see that Chtak is not just about letters. Sometimes it's pretty frustrating when you create an installation and they say, ‘Well, it doesn't look like you.’ What do they mean by saying that?
K.C.: PERHAPS ATTENTION TO WORDS IS IN THE RUSSIAN DNA?
V.C.: It's bullshit. There are no national ‘shticks’ at all. There are cultures that are more text-oriented or less text-oriented. For example, everybody was talking about the boom in poetry in the '60s, but why did it happen? Because poetry is easy to learn. People could not print anything, or sell anything. So it was easier to learn poems by heart because they have rhymes, and poets could recite their poems, unlike prose.
In times of tyranny and terror, when the ‘tightening of the screws’ and the ‘drawing the iron curtain’ happens. Although currently it is not in place, there is military censorship, but once dictatorship [takes over] or the curtain really draws, poetry begins to rise sharply. ‘We live without feeling the country underneath us...’ [a line from a poem by Osip Mandelstam – ed.] This is easy to memorize.
Coming back to the question, there are cultures, in which text is much more ingrained, and word-based statements are more common. There are cultures like Spanish and Latin American, which are based on dance and images. For example, Diego Rivera or Frida Kahlo, two artists that I personally find mediocre, and for me it is not clear why they have become so incredibly famous, it is okay if in their own time, but popular for centuries…
V.C.: It's bullshit. There are no national ‘shticks’ at all. There are cultures that are more text-oriented or less text-oriented. For example, everybody was talking about the boom in poetry in the '60s, but why did it happen? Because poetry is easy to learn. People could not print anything, or sell anything. So it was easier to learn poems by heart because they have rhymes, and poets could recite their poems, unlike prose.
In times of tyranny and terror, when the ‘tightening of the screws’ and the ‘drawing the iron curtain’ happens. Although currently it is not in place, there is military censorship, but once dictatorship [takes over] or the curtain really draws, poetry begins to rise sharply. ‘We live without feeling the country underneath us...’ [a line from a poem by Osip Mandelstam – ed.] This is easy to memorize.
Coming back to the question, there are cultures, in which text is much more ingrained, and word-based statements are more common. There are cultures like Spanish and Latin American, which are based on dance and images. For example, Diego Rivera or Frida Kahlo, two artists that I personally find mediocre, and for me it is not clear why they have become so incredibly famous, it is okay if in their own time, but popular for centuries…
I also have both admirers and those who think I am mediocre, sometimes fairly. I'm sure that if I'm mediocre, my time will end when I die.
About Russians. You know, Italians were a little bit taken aback when they were on a Russian bus, ‘Why is it so quiet and no one talks?’ But people do talk, they're just used to saying words quietly so that other people wouldn’t hear. So it's a culture of a slightly different attitude toward text.
There's also one more important moment that each culture considers itself incredibly unique. ‘It's only possible in Russia!’, some say. No, it is not. ‘Only Russians do that!’ No, not just Russians. Okay, there's the legacy of the Soviet Union, but saying that ONLY Russians can do something, I do not agree.
For example, I saw one story that happened in Belgium, and then you read exactly the same story that happened in Ryazan. But the story is identical – why? Humans are humans everywhere. Everyone wants to shit, eat, fuck and sleep. These are the four references that lead people in all cultures.
For example, I saw one story that happened in Belgium, and then you read exactly the same story that happened in Ryazan. But the story is identical – why? Humans are humans everywhere. Everyone wants to shit, eat, fuck and sleep. These are the four references that lead people in all cultures.
K.C.: SO THERE'S NO POINT IN SEPARATING CULTURES LOCALLY NOW, RIGHT? ESPECIALLY NOWADAYS, EVERYONE IS DIVIDED...
V.C.: Yes, it makes even less sense now. Everything is incredibly interconnected in our modern world. So many people speak English, and it’s a lingua franca, a concept that means universal language. And English as a lingua franca has penetrated much deeper than any other languages before. When you come to Indonesia, for example, you can use English.
It is clear that if you come to the mountains in Peru or Chile, probably no one will understand you, because they have a different idea of things. But in general, if you photograph us all [people in a room – ed.] here, what would distinguish us from the Americans? Nothing. We don't even differ in appearance, sometimes they say that you can spot Russians by their face, however I was so shocked when I had seen what looked Russian faces in England, and you think ‘Yeah, this dude is from Russia,’ and then it turns out his name is David and he is from South London.
K.C.: YOU ARE ONE OF THE MOST RECOGNIZED ARTISTS IN RUSSIAN CONTEMPORARY ART AT THE MOMENT. HOW DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL BEING THE ART WORLD’S ROCK STAR? WHAT IMPACT HAS IT HAD ON YOUR WORK, DOES IT HELP YOU OR VICE VERSA?
V.C.: Yes, it makes even less sense now. Everything is incredibly interconnected in our modern world. So many people speak English, and it’s a lingua franca, a concept that means universal language. And English as a lingua franca has penetrated much deeper than any other languages before. When you come to Indonesia, for example, you can use English.
It is clear that if you come to the mountains in Peru or Chile, probably no one will understand you, because they have a different idea of things. But in general, if you photograph us all [people in a room – ed.] here, what would distinguish us from the Americans? Nothing. We don't even differ in appearance, sometimes they say that you can spot Russians by their face, however I was so shocked when I had seen what looked Russian faces in England, and you think ‘Yeah, this dude is from Russia,’ and then it turns out his name is David and he is from South London.
K.C.: YOU ARE ONE OF THE MOST RECOGNIZED ARTISTS IN RUSSIAN CONTEMPORARY ART AT THE MOMENT. HOW DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL BEING THE ART WORLD’S ROCK STAR? WHAT IMPACT HAS IT HAD ON YOUR WORK, DOES IT HELP YOU OR VICE VERSA?
V.C.: I don't understand what to do about it. Some people stare at me with huge eyes because they recognize me, and others say, ‘I've never heard of you before this moment.’ And you don't understand, whether I'm a famous artist or not. And you keep either underestimating or overestimating your popularity.
K.C.: DO YOU HAVE AN ART STRATEGY OF WORKING IN RUSSIA? OR DO YOU LIVE FOR THE MOMENT? IS IT NOW POSSIBLE FOR A RUSSIAN ARTIST TO SUCCEED ABROAD, AND ARE YOU THINKING OF EXPLORING OTHER TERRITORIES?
V.C.: I am not a man of strategy, I am a man of tactics. I have a day after tomorrow, but who knows what will happen the day after that? To quote myself, in one work I have said: ‘We have only the future ahead of us, only the future awaits us.’ And what awaits us? The future is forever, it will always be with us — a quote from my second work. When I was 23, I didn't think I would live to be 35.
K.C.: BY THE WAY, HOW DO YOU DEFINE YOURSELF? BECAUSE RUSSIAN CONTEMPORARY ART HAS DIVIDED VISIBLY INTO CONCEPTUAL AND VISUAL. DO YOU THINK IT HAS BECOME TOO CONCEPTUAL, REQUIRING CONSTANT CLARIFICATION AND DIVING INTO PHILOSOPHICAL DISCOURSE? IN THAT CASE, THE WORK OF THE ARTIST BECOMES A SOCIAL AND CULTURAL RESEARCH, ARE YOU A RESEARCHER?
V.C.: Definitely not a researcher ... You know, it's like, ‘In their work, artists EXPLORE an understanding of fragility…’ — bullshit. Or ‘Artist explores the daily routine ... the aura of daily routine…’ — Gibberish. I don't see why that should be interesting. It often happens that they say this research bullshit when talking about really interesting artworks that have absolutely no need for this ‘clarification’ – neither curatorial texts, nor analytics. The work itself is beautiful. If you have to explain why an artist is an artist, then this is some kind of complicated shit, which is harder for me to live with. I draw, my friends draw, my friends help me draw my pictures and it's much more interesting and easier.
Ok, maybe someone needs it, since it's happening. Since these people show up and they graduate from all these schools, they feel good, they've found their place. If someone draws lilies, let them draw lilies. But if you've drawn some letters, it doesn't mean you're a conceptualist. Actually, when I got to know the conceptualists better, I realized that they are very funny people. They joke all the time, they have works that are incredibly witty that just make you want to laugh.
I'm not saying that ALL modern art from conceptual schools is shit, but a lot of it is. If you wrote ‘Socialism will win’ that doesn’t make you an artist. It matters what and how you do. Andrei Monastyrsky has an excellent piece, I think it is the most brilliant thing that can be said about art. It's a cap and there's a sign on it that says, 'You can lift it up,' and then you pick it up, and it says, 'You can't understand it,' and that's art. You can pick it up, you can't understand it.
I'm not saying that ALL modern art from conceptual schools is shit, but a lot of it is. If you wrote ‘Socialism will win’ that doesn’t make you an artist. It matters what and how you do. Andrei Monastyrsky has an excellent piece, I think it is the most brilliant thing that can be said about art. It's a cap and there's a sign on it that says, 'You can lift it up,' and then you pick it up, and it says, 'You can't understand it,' and that's art. You can pick it up, you can't understand it.
Andrei Monastyrsky, The Cap, 1983
One more association that I came up with a long time ago, is of magnets that you turn with the same poles and they're like bzzz, so in this case that's art. An invisible bzzz that only you can feel. ‘Oh cool!’ — you say. Everyone's looking at you and being like ‘What's cool?’ But only you can feel it. And if the magnets are glued, it's design. When it's right — it's design, and when it's cool, but not right and no one knows why — it’s art.
K.C.: LET’S MOVE ON TO INSPIRATION. YOU CALL GERMAN ARTIST JOSEPH BEUYS ONE OF YOUR MAIN INSPIRATIONS…
V.C.: Oh yes, Beuys is precisely the artist about whom there are no doubts whether he is an artist or not. He lives like an artist. There's a great photo where he's sitting with the kids, the kids are doing something, and Beuys is sitting in his vest and hat and looking at the camera. That's Beuys right there. Woke up, put the vest on, and I look just like in that catalog.
V.C.: Oh yes, Beuys is precisely the artist about whom there are no doubts whether he is an artist or not. He lives like an artist. There's a great photo where he's sitting with the kids, the kids are doing something, and Beuys is sitting in his vest and hat and looking at the camera. That's Beuys right there. Woke up, put the vest on, and I look just like in that catalog.
A lot of people think I took it from punk stars, but I look the same at the art openings as when I paint. I don't wear a fancy shirt to openings or a satin jacket, a suede jacket with a jabot. Like some artists do. He draws, walks around in stretchy sweatpants, and then at the opening he is suddenly handsome. I understand when girls do that, but boys? Common, you paint, you do not look like that, why are you fooling around. Why are you wearing a jabot? You weren't wearing a jabot when painting. That's how I feel about myself. That's how I come to an opening, dressed in my rags. I've been offered some outfits by advertisers to wear at the Cosmoscow art fair, but I declined, I only wear my own clothes.
K.C.: SPEAKING OF BEUYS ART PRACTICE, HAVE YOU PERSONALLY THOUGHT ABOUT BRINGING PERFORMANCE ART INTO YOUR ART PRACTICE? OR ANY OTHER HYBRID ART FORMS?
V.C.: New media. I don't understand, what is that? Is it social media or what? It's some bullshit. I'm there, but I'm there because you know… All this digital technology is bullshit, so what does it all come down to? As I have said before – to four main references. Ok, for example, something was printed with a 3D printer, so what? Yes, some things have become easier to produce, that's interesting, that's amusing. But we're not going to draw any conclusions.
K.C.: SPEAKING OF BEUYS ART PRACTICE, HAVE YOU PERSONALLY THOUGHT ABOUT BRINGING PERFORMANCE ART INTO YOUR ART PRACTICE? OR ANY OTHER HYBRID ART FORMS?
V.C.: New media. I don't understand, what is that? Is it social media or what? It's some bullshit. I'm there, but I'm there because you know… All this digital technology is bullshit, so what does it all come down to? As I have said before – to four main references. Ok, for example, something was printed with a 3D printer, so what? Yes, some things have become easier to produce, that's interesting, that's amusing. But we're not going to draw any conclusions.
However, look at the sculptures of old masters, somehow they managed to do so well that you just don’t understand how they carved it. And Leroy Merlin wasn't there to go out and buy abrasives. Somehow they made these great monuments. Sure, there are some media artists, all these practices that Nam June Paik started, but it's not about me. I like the fact that you can watch movies on your phone, download them, fine, but I don't see me doing it as an artist.
K.C.: WHO ARE YOU FOLLOWING AND BEING INSPIRED BY RIGHT NOW?
V.C.: Frank Zappa has been a landmark for me for long time. Frank Zappa is a good benchmark, because he's very different. And for example, Zappa that some dude loves is not Zappa that I love. Just like Monty Python or Kharms. To me, those two are immutable pillars. I don't know what it takes to say about Kharms for me to stop loving him, but the Kharms I love is definitely not the Kharms that some others love. ‘I adore Kharms,’ — they say. But you love another Kharms! Or some people show me sketches of Monty Python that they think are funny, but I scroll these exact episodes through. So I love Frank Zappa and Slamming Brutal Death Metal.
K.C.: WHO ARE YOU FOLLOWING AND BEING INSPIRED BY RIGHT NOW?
V.C.: Frank Zappa has been a landmark for me for long time. Frank Zappa is a good benchmark, because he's very different. And for example, Zappa that some dude loves is not Zappa that I love. Just like Monty Python or Kharms. To me, those two are immutable pillars. I don't know what it takes to say about Kharms for me to stop loving him, but the Kharms I love is definitely not the Kharms that some others love. ‘I adore Kharms,’ — they say. But you love another Kharms! Or some people show me sketches of Monty Python that they think are funny, but I scroll these exact episodes through. So I love Frank Zappa and Slamming Brutal Death Metal.
The exhibition 'PGT' at CCI Fabrika features a large-scale painting installation by Valery Chtak.
In my recollections, it was not a village. It was a big and real city.
There was something on every street. About seven hundred people lived in each house.
Every bus had a talking mosquito, even in winter.
Every passer-by knew how to juggle. Most of the cats knew how to ride a bike.
I'm not sure if I lived or been there. Just read about him.
Vague and memories of this reading.
It seems that even the inhabitants of these gigantic houses did not remember the name of this city.
No, of course, everyone remembered everything, and I still remember, but I have always been sure that beautiful poems and songs are born from vague memories. A trite to describe the streets and theorize seems boring.
Songs and poems can also turn out to be insipid and untalented, but here you can at least rely on feelings. Well, emotions, at the very least.
Each time the arrival of Count M.S. He always came for a short time, with an incomprehensible purpose and suddenly. In his entourage, a man in a hat was often seen.
It was rumored that he only presented himself as a count, but in fact he was a prince.
Why he caused such a storm of enthusiastic emotions, I never understood.
Undoubtedly, he was a bright and outstanding person, but only those with whom he communicated could appreciate this. With those who were delighted with him, he was not even familiar.
The man in the hat, on the other hand, aroused unfairly rare interest.
Although he not only played the mandolin excellently, but also spoke Latin well, and understood topography.
He often said that his father knew Academician L., but no one noticed this.
The name of the man in the hat was Nikolay E.
Vera Yablochkova
2022
Moscow
In my recollections, it was not a village. It was a big and real city.
There was something on every street. About seven hundred people lived in each house.
Every bus had a talking mosquito, even in winter.
Every passer-by knew how to juggle. Most of the cats knew how to ride a bike.
I'm not sure if I lived or been there. Just read about him.
Vague and memories of this reading.
It seems that even the inhabitants of these gigantic houses did not remember the name of this city.
No, of course, everyone remembered everything, and I still remember, but I have always been sure that beautiful poems and songs are born from vague memories. A trite to describe the streets and theorize seems boring.
Songs and poems can also turn out to be insipid and untalented, but here you can at least rely on feelings. Well, emotions, at the very least.
Each time the arrival of Count M.S. He always came for a short time, with an incomprehensible purpose and suddenly. In his entourage, a man in a hat was often seen.
It was rumored that he only presented himself as a count, but in fact he was a prince.
Why he caused such a storm of enthusiastic emotions, I never understood.
Undoubtedly, he was a bright and outstanding person, but only those with whom he communicated could appreciate this. With those who were delighted with him, he was not even familiar.
The man in the hat, on the other hand, aroused unfairly rare interest.
Although he not only played the mandolin excellently, but also spoke Latin well, and understood topography.
He often said that his father knew Academician L., but no one noticed this.
The name of the man in the hat was Nikolay E.
Vera Yablochkova
2022
Moscow